Summary of Ep 333: Subhashish Bhadra on Our Dysfunctional State, Seen and Unseen Podcast

 

[This is an AI generated summary. There may be inaccuracies.]

00:00:00 - 01:00:00

Subhashish Bhadra discusses the dysfunctional state in India and how it causes various problems for citizens. Bhadra believes that despite its failures, Indians still turn to the state for solutions and that the government is the biggest religion in India. He shares his personal experiences and how they shaped his views on self-acceptance, self-love, and being non-judgmental. Bhadra also discusses his career and experiences working on various projects, emphasizing the importance of cultivating the ability to deal with complexity and ambiguity. Lastly, he touches upon the topics of happiness, privilege, and political polarization.

• 00:00:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses how the dysfunctional state in India causes problems for its citizens in countless ways. He argues that despite its failures, Indians still turn to the state for solutions and that government is essentially the biggest religion in India. Bhadra's book "Cage Tiger" is described as an essential read for anyone seeking to understand Indian politics and economics. The first hour and a half of this podcast episode is spent getting to know Bhadra, with talk of his personal life, politics and philosophy, which Amit Varma describes as reflective and wise.
• 00:05:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about his childhood as an Armed Forces kid growing up in Delhi with a lot of focus on academics. He studied economics at Saint Stephens in Delhi and worked at McKinsey & Company for several years before attending Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship. Bhadra talks about how his time at Oxford and the Rhodes Must Fall movement shifted his focus from academics to social justice and thinking about the bigger questions of nation-building. He also reflects on the idea of belonging and how it shaped his identity formation process, discussing how his family's focus on academics influenced the way he saw and valued himself.
• 00:10:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses his struggles with the concept of belonging due to growing up in an environment where he was not able to return to his previous home due to the area being reserved for those from a defense background. He eventually came to realize that belonging is based on a set of people and values that resonate with him. For Bhadra, this anchor is the pursuit of happiness, which is exemplified by being able to have his own dog and come home to it after a long day at work.
• 00:15:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about how people tend to look back at their past and reminisce over the happier moments while selectively forgetting the unpleasant ones. He attributes this tendency to finding comfort in familiarity, where people feel a sense of ownership over their past experiences and traumas, even if they were not enjoyable. Bhadra explains how he has learned to take ownership of his emotions and experiences without being judgmental, and how it has helped him overcome a self-destructive spiral that led him to seek professional help in his early years of college. He emphasizes the importance of being kind to oneself and forgiving oneself for past mistakes, a trait that is often overlooked in our culture that values forgiveness and accommodation for others over oneself.
• 00:20:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about his journey towards self-acceptance and self-love. He believes that it is essential to identify one's core values and live intentionally, rather than being defined by external markers or achievements that are beyond our control. Subhashish reflects on how his community's vision of him was solely based on his tangible accomplishments, but he learned to look beyond his CV and preserve the way of life that gave him joy. As he made unconventional career choices, he was criticized by many, but he didn't let these voices define him. Ultimately, he learned that self-love is about being kind to oneself and celebrating one's flaws.
• 00:25:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about the importance of having control over certain aspects of your life, such as how you interact with others, your values and your approach to relationships. He mentions that values are largely influenced by how you grew up and some of the values he has internalized are those of Gandhi, particularly the importance of service. He also believes in reducing oneself to zero and being curious rather than judgmental when it comes to people's choices and views. Finally, he emphasizes the need to look after oneself in order to be equipped to create change in the world.
• 00:30:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses the concept of "good selfish", where helping oneself first will allow one to better help others. He also mentions the importance of being non-judgmental and reducing oneself to zero when it comes to writing. Bhadra talks about his experience in high school, where he felt out of place due to his family's financial situation. However, he found a sense of home in his college, St. Stephen's, where he built a community and the safe space he needed. Even though he studied economics, Bhadra did not enjoy it and instead dreamed of becoming a global developmentalist, which is a common aspiration among many who study economics.
• 00:35:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra, a former McKinsey consultant and author, discusses how his experiences working on various projects helped shape his frame of reference for viewing the world. He shares examples of when he worked with labor laws, visited a steel plant in Europe, and attended a farmer and politician congregation in India. He emphasizes the importance of cultivating the ability to deal with complexity and ambiguity and constantly questioning and being curious about the world, which ultimately helped form his lens for viewing the world. He also notes that being able to recognize that there are trade-offs in public policy is key to understanding how certain policies work or don't work.
• 00:40:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about his shift from thinking about outcomes to processes and how it made him see freedom as agency. He believes that countries with more interventionist governments can still be relatively free if they made decisions in a consultative and participative way. However, he acknowledges the nuance in the phrase "countries that have chosen," as the state or majority community may have chosen instead of the people most affected by the decision. Bhadra also shares how he topped the board exams and CAT but chose not to go to any IIMs as it was not the life he wanted to live. He believes a pursuit of happiness leads to success.
• 00:45:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about finding happiness and success. He believes that it's only when you enjoy what you're doing that you can unlock success for yourself. He advises people to not overthink happiness and let it happen naturally. He also talks about the road scholarship and how he wanted to experience living in a different country and studying in a different education system. Despite the difficulties that came with the Rhodes must fall movement, he made friends and found a sense of belonging during his time at Oxford.
• 00:50:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses his experience as a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford and how it led him to think about privilege and dismantle notions built within us. He talks about how in India, his sexuality was a question but in Oxford, he came out to people on the second day and felt free to express himself. He also talks about the process of voting and how the debate in India is about cutting fraud to zero while in the UK, the goal is to reduce it to the extent that it does not affect the outcome of elections. Bhadra talks about how all these experiences shaped the way he looks at issues, and how he has always been someone who could take a different point of view.
• 00:55:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about being othered and silenced despite coming from a place of privilege and how it has given him a greater sense of empathy towards those who are marginalized. He emphasizes the importance of giving voice to people with different experiences and backgrounds and listening to them intently. He also touches upon the issue of political polarization and highlights the importance of acknowledging and valuing different perspectives to arrive at a happy middle ground in public policy processes.

01:00:00 - 02:00:00

Bhadra discusses a variety of topics related to India's dysfunctional state, including the lack of appreciation for business in policy-making, the issues with public policy-making, the polarization of opinions surrounding Aadhaar, and the need for cultural change and systems for effective policy-making. Bhadra also talks about the legacy of British colonial rule in Indian society, the challenges India faces as a young republic, and his own journey toward understanding institutions and governance. Additionally, he offers writing advice and explains the concept of path dependence and its impact on a country's ability to change. Overall, Bhadra emphasizes the importance of taking responsibility and holding authority figures accountable for improving economic prosperity and civil liberties in India.

• 01:00:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra highlights the lack of appreciation for the workings of businesses among those in the think tank space, as it is essential to understand how companies operate to create effective policies that balance interests. Furthermore, Bhadra discusses the issues with public policy-making in India, pointing out the lack of consultation and foundation in processes before tackling bigger questions. Bhadra also shares his personal experience of being rejected in 50 interviews after finishing his studies, teaching him the value of community and networking and the importance of compartmentalizing life amidst challenges.
• 01:05:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra reflects on how being an outsider and facing rejection repeatedly helped him become a more empathetic and well-rounded person. He believes that life experiences can teach one humility, empathy, and compassion, and that having these qualities is essential for success in the corporate world. Bhadra also shares his experience working at Umida Network in 2016, where he helped build the vertical on digital identity and participated in an inflection point for India. He worked on a wide range of issues related to digital identity, including privacy tech, and helped fund a large-scale survey on digital identity called the "state of aadhar report." While working there, he had to navigate the highly polarized perspectives on the aadhaar program, which taught him the importance of being comfortable with occupying the "Middle Ground" even when it can be stressful and uncomfortable.
• 01:10:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses how those who oppose Aadhaar in its entirety miss the fact that India has a limited state capacity, which technology and tools like Aadhaar can help increase. However, those who support Aadhaar fail to appreciate the everyday nuances of India, such as the importance of intermediaries in helping people navigate complex systems. Bhadra also discusses the polarization of opinions surrounding Aadhaar and how he learned to develop a thick skin and be empathetic to those who initially opposed it. In terms of policy making, Bhadra suggests that regulatory governance must have a legal basis and include public consultations to ensure a fair and effective implementation.
• 01:15:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses the need for cultural change, systems, and processes to listen to both sides of an argument, especially in an age of polarization. He suggests that India's own experience shows the importance of setting formal institutions in place to percolate down to informal institutions, affecting cultural change. Bhadra suggests that formal institutions lead to changes in the way people approach policy and can result in engagement and public participation in the policy process. He observes how India's extractive institutions were set up during the colonial period, leading to India's exploitative and rent-seeking mentality.
• 01:20:00 this section of the video, Subhashish Bhadra discusses the legacy of the British colonial rule in Indian society, particularly in institutions such as the police where a centralized system remains in place even though local ownership and oversight is needed. The constitution adopted by India was a cut-and-paste of the Government of India Act, which the British had brought about, resulting in the control that Indian citizens continue to experience today in their political, social, and economic lives. Bhadra notes that the path-dependency and context behind present-day problems are often not fully understood, and there is a need to examine the history behind specific laws and practices. For example, Nehru's introduction of the First Amendment led to a severe curtailment of free speech and enabled the return of sedition, which was heavily contested in the Constituent Assembly. Overall, there is a great continuity of the Indian state, with common patterns seen across different generations and in different political parties.
• 01:25:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses the "great continuity" of the Indian state, which refers to the fact that despite changes in the government, the fundamental structures of the Indian state have remained the same, such as the restrictions on Art and the misuse of the governor's office. He notes that many of the things we blame on the government are a result of the dysfunctional state and its corrupting influences, leading to a system in which those in power will behave similarly, regardless of their political affiliation. While Bhadra is optimistic that things can improve and cites the RTI movement as an example, he acknowledges that the fractured nature of society is a major concern and a significant challenge to overcome.
• 01:30:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses the challenges India faces as a young republic and the importance of citizens taking responsibility and holding authority figures accountable to improve economic prosperity and civil liberties. He cites evidence showing that even in monarchies, a more complaining citizenry leads to better outcomes, and emphasizes the need for people to develop the habit of questioning and demanding change. Bhadra also talks about his journey into regulatory governance, an area of interest that was sparked during his time at Omega Network that led him to fund think tanks focused on data privacy, digital identity, and citizen autonomy. This interest eventually led him to write his book, "The Narrow Corridor to Liberty: The Red Queen and the Struggle for Progress".
• 01:35:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about his journey towards understanding institutions and governance. While working at Omega Network India and funding startups in the data privacy space, he was exposed to both the policy and implementation side of institutions, which gave him a more holistic perspective on the issues. He realized that there was not enough appreciation for institutions among his peers in the startup and VC space, which led him to write a book that would maintain academic rigor but be more readable and relatable for a Gen Z and millennial audience. Bhadra's process of writing the book and articulating his thinking not only improved his writing but also helped him refine and strengthen his arguments, leading to a two-way process between writing and thinking.
• 01:40:00 In this section, author and economist Subhashish Bhadra talks about the challenges of writing and finding his voice for his book on India's dysfunctional state. Bhadra explains that he spent a lot of time reading books by other authors with opposing perspectives to help him form his grand narrative, but found inspiration in their clarity and ability to provoke thought. Bhadra also reveals that he wrote the first 30,000 words of his book in a week while on vacation, but completed the rest of the book by writing four to five hours every weekend. In closing, Bhadra offers writing advice to those who find it intimidating to write by suggesting writing only 200 words a day.
• 01:45:00 In this section, the conversation revolves around the practice of writing and how it can seem intimidating to those who wish to write a book. Bhadra emphasizes the importance of developing a writing habit by committing to writing 200 or 300 words every day, which can amount to a substantial number of words over the course of a year. He also highlights the significance of just putting your thoughts and emotions on paper, even if you end up rewriting them later, as it can boost confidence. Bhadra also delves into the balance between the grand narrative and the specifics, stating that he followed the 80-20 principle in his book, linking specific policy examples with specific things happening while centering around the larger notion of contributing to nation-building.
• 01:50:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra explains the concept of path dependence and how it affects a country's ability to change. He attributes this to the circumstances of a country's birth and its form of government. He compares the US and India's birth and founding constitution, noting that the US's constitution was set up with a rigid federal architecture that emphasizes checks and balances to prevent the concentration of power. In contrast, India's constitution was designed in the 1940s with a socialist bent that allowed for a lot of government intervention in the economy to deal with economic stagnation and social chaos. Bhadra notes that once a form of government has been established and the genie has been let out of the bottle, it's difficult for a country to change course.
• 01:55:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses how the decisions made during the framing of the Indian Constitution, such as centralizing power and keeping some powers of the colonial state, were understandable given the social and historical context at the time. However, these decisions have led to path dependency, where certain policies and practices that were removed from the Constitution have re-entered it through backdoor entries. He talks about the dangers of centralizing power and designing society from the top down, which can lead to bad practices becoming institutionalized. While ideally, both top-down and bottom-up approaches to liberty should have been taken, the lack of a strong classical liberal political party that could make a case for decentralization and liberalism has led to the current situation of having 50 shades of left in Indian politics.

02:00:00 - 03:00:00

Bhadra discusses various issues concerning governance, civil liberties, and technology in India. He highlights the need for a smaller state and a more limited government that focuses on doing fewer things but doing them well to enhance state capacity. Bhadra also emphasizes the negative impact of India's original sins, including an extremely centralized state, a limited set of fundamental rights, and the caste system. The speakers also discusses the impact of overregulation on the economy and how labor laws have hindered the growth of the manufacturing sector. Moreover, the video delves into the state of free speech, surveillance, and the importance of independent institutions for maintaining a balanced power structure that upholds democratic institutions.

• 02:00:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses the main thesis of the book 'The Narrow Corridor' and its applicability to India's current situation. The book argues that economic prosperity and individual liberties lie within a narrow corridor where the capacity of the state and society evolve together. Bhadra agrees with the book's argument that India has a more powerful society but argues that the state is also powerful due to the way laws are structured. He advocates for more people to be involved in discussions around politics and policies to balance the imbalance between the state and society. Bhadra also emphasizes the need for the state to focus on doing fewer things but doing them well before taking on more tasks to build state capacity.
• 02:05:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses the need for a smaller state that focuses only on the essential tasks, such as preventing murders, rapes, and robberies, rather than wasting resources on catching a minister's stolen buffaloes. He argues for a limited government based on opportunity cost, where the state's limited capacity is used efficiently and effectively. Bhadra emphasizes the need for a different lens to address India's original sins, which include an extremely centralized state, a limited set of fundamental rights, and the caste system. He asserts that these sins have continued to perpetuate and have harmed India's progress and development.
• 02:10:00 In this section, the speaker identifies three 'original sins' of the Indian Constitution writing process which unfavorably impact Indian society today. These are the communal nature of the electorate, the watering down of fundamental citizen rights and government-driven economically centralized projects which led to the nationalization of industries, which eventually led to over-regulation and limiting of economic freedom. Specifically, the speaker argues that even though India liberalized its economy in 1991, it still remains one of the world's most over-regulated economies, and regulators such as the RBI, SEBI, and TRAI continue to hold an excessive amount of power in India, even when compared to other countries' regulations. Thus, India's economic freedoms are still limited, and the original sins of the Constitution writing process continue to impact Indian life today.
• 02:15:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses how market policies that increase competition and maintain the rule of law can benefit consumers and citizens. He argues that looking at economic policies with a focus on social welfare can allow for more nuanced and complex understanding of the implications of government interventions. Bhadra highlights specific examples of price distortions and how they can lead to second and third-order consequences, leading to questions about whether other alternatives could have led to the same outcome. He also points out the challenges in governance that come with having large public sector banks and government-backed entities that are hard for private players to compete against.
• 02:20:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about how India's labor laws have hindered the growth of the manufacturing sector. Bhadra explains how once a company crosses a certain threshold of workers, they need government permission to fire employees, which leads companies to hire daily wage workers without any job security or protection. This approach has been used in a factory in Gujarat where every day a bus would come to pick up workers from the village, and if there were no workers, then production would decrease. Furthermore, Bhadra talks about the impact of regulators on businesses in India, such as competition and content moderation regulators, and how these are not visible to the people. Bhadra believes that the Indian government has not had enough debate about the policies in place and the outcomes they cause. He stresses the importance of thinking about the second and third-order implications of policies, instead of only focusing on good intentions.
• 02:25:00 In this section, the speaker discusses the negative impacts of the Indian government's intervention in the farming industry, which creates a negative sum game for both farmers and consumers. They also discuss the police structure in India, which was inherited from the British and is designed to subjugate the people rather than protect their rights. The police force has been criticized for showing unquestioned loyalty to imperialists and complete submission to the interests of the ruling party. They provide examples of police excesses during the emergency and how they arrested and tortured people, including a Kannada film actress who died of a lung infection five days after her release from prison. The speaker argues that not enough young people know about these events and highlights the need for reform in the police system that has been ignored by the government.
• 02:30:00 In this section, speaker Subhashish Bhadra discusses how the police force in India is under-resourced, undertrained, understaffed, and underinvested in. There is a lack of transparency and accountability in the system, as most complaints against police are handled by the government which makes the decisions of suspending or transferring police officers. Throughout history, reports and committees have recommended police reform, but political will is lacking because the people who can change the system are the ones who benefit from it. Public awareness and a wider societal conversation might be the only way to bring about change and create a better police force that also focuses on improving the quality of life of police personnel.
• 02:35:00 In this section, the video discusses the state of free speech in India and its intersection with repressive laws and technological tools. The conversation includes the fact that India has many bad laws regarding free speech, such as Article 19B, 295a, and 253a, which can be interpreted so widely that practically anyone can be imprisoned at any point. Moreover, the process itself is the punishment, and the system has a chilling effect on individuals, such as the media. However, technological tools exist that enable people to speak out, like using VPNs, going somewhere to have conversations, and posting content. While opposition leaders aren't being arrested in record numbers like during the emergency, there is a possibility that, if the ruling party were to face the prospect of losing an election, they could turn to vindictive acts to remain in power, which would toss free speech and other civil liberties out the window.
• 02:40:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra discusses free speech in India and the paradox of having the ability to have somewhat open conversations about sensitive topics while facing restrictions from the government. He notes that while there is a degree of freedom of speech, it can be limited by the apparatus of the state, and the government is often selective in its responses to speech violations. Bhadra argues that free speech should not be left to the government, which is representative of the majoritarian will, but to the judiciary for a balanced consideration of human rights. He also points out that India's lack of judicial oversight at the beginning of a case is a core issue in free speech concerns. Furthermore, Bhadra highlights that while India has the technological tools to circumvent censorship, the battleground around free speech is shifting towards cyberspace, and the challenges of regulating free speech online will be a key issue going forward.
• 02:45:00 In this section, the focus is on the importance of end-to-end encryption and the battle between government control and freedom of speech in cyberspace. The speaker stresses the need for global standards to be established to determine the boundaries and regulations around free speech, particularly in the context of end-to-end encryption. He discusses the involvement of the judiciary in this process and the importance of horizontal and vertical distribution of power to maintain democratic institutions. While there is a need for independent institutions, the speaker acknowledges the complexity of achieving complete independence as everything in a democracy is supposed to be interdependent. Nonetheless, horizontal and vertical distribution of power can be established through a system of independent and accountable institutions and societal norms that regulate the interactions between them.
• 02:50:00 In this section, the discussion focuses on the balance between individual liberties and the state's legitimate need to carry out surveillance to protect its citizens from terrorists and catch criminals. The conversation delves into the increasing control of information and surveillance by states all over and the trade-off that may leave tech companies caught between a rock and a hard place. The rise of technology had made surveillance easy, and this technology could even lead to AI replacing manual monitoring. The conversation then shifts to the use of such systems by the state to control its citizens, which is a slippery slope. While the state needs support, such policies could result in a dystopian direction, and there should be an increase in institutional independence to balance power and prevent its concentration.
• 02:55:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra proposes that if Indians are made aware of the extent of surveillance required to keep them safe, they might be more accepting of consistent government surveillance. He stresses that transparency is crucial in this process, and the government should provide evidence of their efforts while transparency should be increased to ensure that there is a balance between independence and accountability when it comes to independent regulators taking control of the situation. He then discusses the three mega trends that will impact India's institutions substantially: the spread of technology, identity and polarization, and the distribution of power in government.

03:00:00 - 03:15:00

Bhadra talks about the three mega trends - technology, identity and polarization, and the distribution of power - and their impact on institutions, and the channels of institutional evolution that give armchair activists a voice for change. He prefers evolutionary change over revolutionary change and believes that incremental changes are more effective. Bhadra hopes that in 2040, Indian citizens care less about basic necessities and more about higher-order questions of life for a more prosperous country, but fears domination by multinational and Indian big tech and business could lead to a surveillance crony capitalist system that would restrict individual liberties. He recommends books on public institutions, understanding both sides of the political aisle, and watching Black Mirror to understand where society might be heading. The video also provides information on how to access show notes, follow the podcast's host and guest on social media, browse past episodes, and support the podcast's production with a contribution of any amount.

• 03:00:00 In this section of the video, Subhashish Bhadra discusses the three mega trends - technology, identity and polarization, and the distribution of power. He explains that each of these can either strengthen or weaken institutions, and the direction they take depends on the country's path. Bhadra also talks about the four channels of institutional evolution - soft guardrails, such as speaking out and voting with wallets, and hard guardrails, such as political protests and mobilization, as well as the courts of change. These channels give armchair activists and citizens a voice in bringing about institutional change in the country. Bhadra's purpose in writing about these channels is to show that even as a Twitter activist or armchair activist, one can make a difference in democracy and bring about change.
• 03:05:00 In this section, the speaker discusses whether incremental or revolutionary change is needed to fundamentally change the dysfunctional state of India. The acknowledgement of the original virtues of India's institutions is made as the speaker highlights the importance of self-correction and small evolutionary changes in getting to a better society. Revolutionary change can lead to social chaos, so it is best to keep making small and medium-sized changes to solve old political excesses, even if new problems arise. The speaker also notes the ability of India to self-correct some of its political excesses, as seen in the restriction of the dismissal of state governments by the center, which has become far fewer than it was in the past.
• 03:10:00 In this section, Subhashish Bhadra talks about his preference for evolutionary change rather than revolutionary change when it comes to improving the state of India, given the potential risks of rewriting the constitution and the uncertainty that comes with it. He believes that Indians trust their government despite its limitations and that evolutionary change is a more comfortable and understandable option. When asked about his best-case and worst-case scenarios for India in 2040, Bhadra hopes that Indian citizens care less about basic necessities and more about higher-order questions of life, which would create a foundation for a more prosperous country. He also fears that India will be dominated by multinational and Indian big tech and business that the state directly promotes, leading to a surveillance crony capitalist system that restricts individual liberties. Lastly, Bhadra recommends books about public institutions, a better understanding of both sides of the political aisle, and the TV series Black Mirror to give people a sense of where society might be heading.
• 03:15:00 This section provides information on how to access the show notes and follow the host and guest on social media. The audience is also encouraged to browse past episodes and support the production of the podcast with a contribution of any amount.